Re: [hylafax-users] Fax confirmation: Umlauts (ä) broken

[Lee Howard <faxguy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Aidan Van Dyk wrote:

> > Am Donnerstag, 1. Februar 2007 22:10 schrieb Lee Howard:
> >    
>
>  
>
> > > It's the wrong approach, and I have publicly told many times those still
> > > developing at hylafax.org that it is the wrong approach.  They ignore me
> > > and largely do not respond to me.  I think that they've invested a lot
> > > of time into the templating, and they will be extremely reluctant to
> > > abandon it.
> > >      
>
> All you did was jump up and shout that you didn't like the idea of
> templates, and you wanted to keep everything in 1 big file with
> different character sets and all the problems associated with that.
>  

Firstly, understand that you're replying to a message (or a part 
thereof) that was not sent to the list, but was sent privately.  That 
recipient chose to reply with the private content back to the list.  
I've said those things on list before (or at least I've tried to) and I 
don't particularly mind what the recipient did in sending this back to 
the list, but I just simply don't have the desire to enter into these 
kinds of dialogues with you or Darren any more, and so I wouldn't 
normally have sent the message to which you're replying to the list.

In reply to what you're saying, initially I did not object to 
templating.  In fact, initially I believed that it would be an 
improvement.  You chose to re-tackle mail internationalization with 
templating, and that alone makes a show-stopper situation for me.  I 
simply cannot have dozens of mail template files for every language 
supported by my systems and then have to go through maintenance to 
potentially hundreds of files merely to make a small modification to a 
customized mail message.  The way that I'm doing it in HylaFAX+ (and the 
way it used to be done with versions 4.3.0 and earlier) I change one 
file in one place, and it's done.  Anyway, my objections on this have 
been public for quite some time now, initially in on-list postings, now 
compiled here:  
http://hylafax.sourceforge.net/docs/hylafax-differences.php#mailscripts

I said that I eventually planned on breaking the dictionary up into 
language-specific files - however, I *still* feel like there just aren't 
enough translations there to make that worthwhile.  There are only 9 
translations right now, and all of them except for one use the same 
character set.  I don't object to breaking that up, it's just not seemed 
really worthwhile yet.

> It's not like you offered solutions to any of the problems that
> bin/dictionary was running into.  You just kept saying that
> bin/dictionary was the idol we were to bow down too...
>  

Well, I did offer solutions, and I did not claim idolatry, but your 
approach here in this very message (typical of how things were - and 
are, I guess), make finding common ground nearly impossible.

> I do not have of the personal attachment to templates that you seem to
> imply.  My goal as a software developer is to continue to improve
> software, recognising that one of the *largest* costs and burdens of
> software is maintaining it and improving it in the future.  Templates
> took about a day to implement (1/2 for awk/shell, and a 1/2 for initial
> translations).

Understand that from a user perspective the entire development effort 
since 4.3.0 has been focused on templating.  Sure, there are a few other 
things there (some of which was pulled from HylaFAX+) - but the vast 
majority of the hylafax.org commits since 4.3.0 are template-related - 
first implementing them, and then cleaning up the damage they and the 
rewrites did.  So at least from this user's perspective, the last year 
of development at hylafax.org has been centered on templates and the 
hundred or more files that involved.

> The cost of templates is in continuing to update them
> for future stuff.  And I think that templates makes that future easier.
>  

Well, I disagree.

> As to "ignore me and largely do not respond to me", you were the one who
> largely started ignoring things (or at least not wanting to work with
> others).

Again, I disagree.  I hardly think that my behavior on-list and off can 
constitute me *ignoring* HylaFAX.  However, even if I entertain the idea 
that my departure to hylafax.sourceforge.net constitutes me *ignoring* 
"things", realize that did not happen until after many years of trying 
to work with you and Darren.  My development work probably constituted 
95% or more of the work done between 4.2.0 and 4.3.0 inclusive.  I did 
try, and some progress was made, but largely it was still unbearably 
frustrating.  There had to come some point when I "started" a departure.

> From what I see, hylafax.org is still a *community* project,
> with more than 1 person committing stuff (in fact, you *still* have
> commit privileges at cvs.hylafax.org), while at SF, you have a CVS where
> you are the *only* one who commits.

I'm not sure that this is relevant.  If a contributor contributes work 
to HylaFAX I have generally taken that and put it immediately into the 
sourceforge repository.  Sometimes contributors simply e-mail me the 
work, and I commit it from there.  I'm not really sure that the quantity 
of people who have commit privileges is relevant to the quality of 
software development that will therefore occur.

> In fact, when you "left", you
> largely left the impression that it was because you didn't want to have
> to work with anybody, but rather wanted to forge ahead on your own, not
> liking the idea of collaborative work.
>  

Well, if my open work supporting HylaFAX users on-list and off, my 
continued participation on Bugzilla, and my open development of HylaFAX+ 
does not constitute collaboration then I don't know what you mean by 
"collaboration" except that you find my using the sourceforge repository 
to be otherwise.  If my track record with IAXmodem is of any indication 
for my character, then I would contend that you've misrepresented me.  
As for HylaFAX... my only choices for finding inner peace with my 
HylaFAX development was to either move my work elsewhere or to simply 
stop doing it (publicly).  I believe that I chose the more "open" and 
"collaborative" approach.

Anyway, it looks like Darren's chiming in now, and surely it's going to 
be another one of *those* kinds of exchanges, so for the sake of those 
bearing the burden of reading this dialogue, I'll stop here.

Thanks,

Lee.

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