Re: flexfax: Hylafax rpm issues

[Steve Williams <steve@genie96.com>]

Howdy,

[snip]

> 
> Are you actually a linux user? Everyone knows the package maintainer is simply
> the package maintainer, not the content.

I have dabbled with Linux.  We are an IBM house here, so that is where my
expertise lies, AIX & SCO.  Regardless, the person that "creates" the package 
dictates where files are going to go.  They will ( hopefully ) also include
installation notes that NO-ONE EVER READS... RTFM <g>.

[snip]

> I think there was some previous conversation about the changes he was going to
> make to the package before he put it together, that you must have missed
> objecting to then.

No, I didn't miss it.  At the time, I didn't think it was that big of an
issue.  When it is mentioned that it was hoped that this RPM would be 
included in the RedHat distribution of Linux, then that places a much 
greater importance on the issue than before ( in my mind, anyway ).

Anyone that has to pick up the package of the Web or an FTP site at least 
has a bit of knowlege of their system, because it is already connected to 
the Internet ( well, that is a LARGE assumption, but not TOO outrageous ).

When you give a nice "simple" CD-ROM to someone to install on their PC, and
I must say, the Linux installation blows the door off of SCO, then it
is not quite so obvious that they are super knowlegable about their system.
Granted, it doesn't preclude it either.

[snip]

> > One MAJOR issue I have is that you are recommending that people NOT RUN 
> > FAXSETUP & FAXADDMODEM ???
> > 
> > These programs do EXTENSIVE testing of the system to ensure it is set up
> > properly.  They probe the modem & make most of the decisions for the end
> > user.
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice to attempt to make hylafax as easy to use and
> install/maintain as possible?  After all, he listed the implications of using
> the package and what changes were made.  This is not a substitute for not
> reading the documentation.
> 

Give me a break!!!.  Unfortunatly, I deleted the message, but just today,
some email came across the mailing list that someone thought this RPM would
"DO EVERYTHING FOR HIM".

> > IF THEY CAN'T PROBE THE MODEM, THEN THERE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE SYSTEM!!!
> > AND NOTHING WILL WORK PERIOD!!!.
> 
> OH MY GOSH-GOLLY!  Somehow I bet he tested it on his box first, and it most
> likely was one step closer to being perfect than the last RPM that was built. 
> Again, he can suggest that you don't probe the modem, but that doesn't mean you
> don't have to read the documentation, and probe the modem yourself.
> 

Get real!!!.  People want to read as little as possible ( including myself ).
If someone says to do it this way, they will take that as the gosphel truth,
and do it that way.  The fact that there is AMPLE other documentation will
not affect their decision.  I am just as bad as everyone else.  I try to 
do something first, then RTFM.  If the RTFM (with the RPM ) says to manually 
edit the files, that's what they will do.  If they can't figure it out 
after that, unless there is a big pointer in the README with the RPM, then
off to the mailing list they will go.

faxsetup and faxaddmodem work!!  If they don't work, then there is something
fundamentally wrong with your system that will jump out and bite you sometime
down the road.  If the shell script breaks ( earlier versions of bash ), 
then there is a good chance that some other shell script is going to break,
as HylaFAX relies HEAVILY on shell scripting.  So you get the modem working
by manually editing the config files.  Then people can't figure out why they
aren't getting email notification of their faxes when the "notify.sh" script
won't run ( just using this as an example ).

If the faxaddmodem script hangs during running of it, then there is a very good 
chance that something is wrong with how the modem is configured, __OR__ at
the operating system level.  ( Early versions of AIX had problems at the OS
level with some things that caused faxaddmodem to hang..., AND other programs
as well ).

[snip]

> 
> And the earth is round.  Ha, no one would ever think something could be made
> easier to maintain.  Apparently RPM == Linux idiot.
> 

Ummm, no I am not saying Linux idiot, but not necessarily an indepth 
knowlegable user.  I only say this because IT HAS SUCH A GREAT INSTALL
PACKAGE!!.  Anyone can install pretty much anything easily.

The days of having to hack code from the internet to get it to compile on
another platform are pretty much over.  ( I just compiled the sh-utils-1.16
on AIX 3.2.5 with no errors ).  Things are at the point where you no longer
need to be a programmer to be grabbing software off of the internet, just
follow the directions.  This means that the user may not have a fundamental
understanding of *nix operating systems, as MAYBE they are coming from
the Windows environment, and using Linux as a learning environment.

I am all for getting some things easier to install, something as simple as
configuring the syslogd to produce debugging messages took me ages to figure
out when I first tackled the job.  At that time, there were no binary 
distributions, or README's.  But, I do understand the syslog.conf file 
now<g>.

That agony should NOT be inflicted on a "novice" user.  BUT!!  They should 
still know something about it, because what if the see "daemon" in their
config files that they are editing by hand.  If they don't know how the
debugging works, they might change that to some other item, and voilla, 
their debugging quits working.  If they have no idea that they RPM "tweaked"
their syslog.conf file, they will have no idea what broke where.

[snip]

> 
> And don't you think the HylaFAX maintainers would be happy to see someone else
> got his piece of shit modem working with it?  There are no stipluations as to
> which modems absolutely must not be used under no circumstances, because there
> is a chance you may have to edit a text file or two.
> 

The people that can get a "piece of *hit" modem working with HylaFAX are not
likely to be the ones that are going to be needing ELEMENTARY help.  If 
someone is comfortable with playing with MSB2LSB & all those wonderful things 
that I have no idea about, then they are more than likely to read manuals/web 
pages for assistance before jumping on the mailing list.

I am concerned about the users that install HylaFAX on their home PC with
no fundamental understanding of what is going on because the RPM did 
everything for them, and then they hit the HylaFAX mailing list for help.

If they haven't even run faxsetup or faxaddmodem ( which kinda give clues
about what is wrong ), how can we help them on the mailing list?

> > If you are looking for a simple fax package, people should be using some
> > other package.
> 
> Yeah, like Windows FAX, right?  After all, this is meant to be difficult, and
> only Windows programs are easy to use.
> 

Nope, I was referring to mgetty+sendfax.  Windows is a REAL *HITTY 
environment period!!  But, mgetty+sendfax doesn't support Class 1 Fax, 
which HylaFAX does.  Thus, I would expect that would motivate even more
people to use HylaFAX vs. mgetty+sendfax.  It seems that most modem chip 
manufacturers have dumped Class 2 fax when they had to fit the 56K onto 
the ROM, ( and even some of the 33.6's ) so most of the new "bottom end" 
modems are all Class 1.

> > Remember, a software package is only as good as the support that it gets,
> > and these (HylaFAX )non-standard locations and naming conventions would 
> > ( in my opinion ) reduce the ability of the mailing list to support the 
> > package.
> 
> Again, who says support is bound to the package maintainer?  I'm sure he's
> included the documentation with it.

Yes, but there are lots of us on the mailing list that will never read the
Linux documentation.  And the mailing list is where you will get resources
from people that have been using the software for years.  Ask me what 
ModemClass is used for!!  It is DOES NOT indicate Class 1, 2, 2.0.  If 
someone get's that one wrong, good luck sending a fax!!!  I have seen this
one come across the mailing list many a time, & I have been able to 
help them out because I debugged the code on one of the beta versions where
there was a problem.

If there are too many "RTMF" questions on the mailing list, I would just 
unsubscribe from the mailing list & stay on the "beta tester" mailing list.
That would be a shame, because I like to return the favors that I have had 
bestowed on me when I have required assistance.  However, one can get 
tired of silly questions. 

[snip]
> 
> Again, the reason for building an RPM is to simplify the build process, and
> make an attempt at making configuration easier.  There is nothing to bound him
> to this package, and it certainly isn't a substitute for reading the manual.
> 
Simplifying the build process is grand.  I'm all for it.  My problem I guess
is that DON'T SKIP STEPS.  If there is a readme with the RPM, that is going
to be what people read, simply because there is so much HylaFAX documentation
one does not know where to start.  Suggesting to edit config files by hand
rather than running the supplied utilities is supposed to be easier??  What
about testing to see if the cabling is correct on the modem ( which 
faxaddmodem kinda does )?  

As for reading the manual...

I installed Linux on a 486 without reading a single manual.  A guy gave me 
the floppies & a CD & said go to it.  It's an amazing process.  I don't
really need to know much about hardware to get it going.  Those are the
people that I worry about.  They have a el-cheapo Class 1 fax modem, so 
they install the HylaFAX RPM, and can't get it working, & flood the mailing
list.  The "hackers" that play around with the kernel aren't so much a 
concern.
 
[oops, Sorry, I deleted the reference to installing samba not working]

Fax Modems are MUCH more fickle than samba.  You have byte order, flow 
control, modems that switch baud rate to 19200 when the recieve a fax,
and god knows how many other "features".  A novice user is going to have
many more problems than just editing a samba config file & changing
a server name.

Anyway, I have spewed on enough, I have to go home & go to bed.

It's been nice chatting.
-- 
	Steve Williams, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
	Genie Computer Systems Inc.
	steve@genie96.com

"A man doesn't begin to attain wisdom until he recognizes that he is 
 no longer indespensable."
- Admiral Richard E. Byrd ( 1888-1957 )